Are Grappling Moves Useless For Street Self Defense?

June 22nd, 2009 · Comments · Street Self Defense

Welcome back!

Thanks to the rise in popularity of BJJ and MMA grappling moves have become very popular amongst martial artists of all styles. Even traditional karateka are dappling in this art in an effort to become “well-rounded fighters”, a phrase that I hear more and more often these days. It seems many martial artists are feeling the pressure to introduce grappling into their training these days, partly for commercial reasons (to attract more members) and partly because they think they have to know what to do if they ever have to go to the ground in a fight, a notion that is itself based on the dubious claim that most fights go to the ground. I don’t really understand where this notion came from because in my experience (and in the experience of many others) most fights do not go to the ground.

So why are so many martial artists these days claiming that grappling is an essential self defense skill? It’s almost like they want to go to the ground. Why would anyone want to go to the ground in a fight?

A Dumb Move

My father is a bouncer in a nightclub and he recently told me an interesting if almost unbelievable story about a guy he had to put out of the club. This guy was messing around and being aggressive with people so my father and one of the other bouncers went up to him and asked him to leave. As usual with these people, the guy took exception to this request and started to get aggressive. The other bouncer that was with my father took hold of the guy to escort him out of the club but as soon as he did the guy dropped straight to the ground and took hold of the other bouncer’s leg, trying to pull him down to the ground. My father stood there in slight shock, wondering what the hell this guy was doing. Then the guy suddenly bit the other bouncer’s leg before quickly grabbing my fathers leg to try and pull him to the floor. My father had had enough at this stage and he did a jig all over the guy on the ground before hauling him up and throwing him out of the club. He laughed about it afterwards with the other bouncer. Just another crazy night.

Anyway, the guy came back the following week looking for some kind of revenge. He declared himself a professional cage fighter before going in for the kill once more, this time trying to grapple my father down to the ground. My father, a 7^th Dan in Kempo Ju Jitsu, reacted quickly and put a few strikes into the guy before turning him and putting a choke on him, dragging the guy out the door and dumping him on the ground. As my father turned to walk away the guy grabbed my fathers legs, trying to apply some kind of ankle lock. Another jig ensued and it was all over. The guy never came back after that.

It turns out this guy was indeed an MMA fighter and for some reason he thought that going immediately to the ground was a good idea. His intention was to use his grappling skills, if he had any, to tie my father up in knots and assert his MMA dominance. I laughed and shook my head when I heard this story, as you are probably doing now. I couldn’t believe that anyone could be so stupid. Are there really grappler’s out there who are so convinced of the superiority of there style that they actually think it is a good idea to go straight the ground? Does that type of brutal ignorance actually exist? Obviously, at least in this case.

grappling,grappling moves,grappling techniques,ground fighting

Grappling and Self Defense

The story does serve to illustrate the attitude people have about grappling moves these days though. Grappling’s effectiveness as a fighting style has been vastly over-rated thanks to MMA and BJJ. Under sport conditions, it might serve you well, but in a self defense situation it will only get you in trouble. The fact that there are MMA fighters and the like who believe otherwise only goes to show the levels of ignorance and misunderstanding that permeate the whole grappling scene at the moment. I think these fighters are so blinded by the notion that there fighting style is superior to all others that they can’t see the truth of the matter. Yes, grappling is effective in the ring, but outside it is not. The conditions are completely different.

This is not to say that grappling moves don’t have their uses. There will be times when a fight does go the ground and you will have to grapple about a bit, but in these cases you still have to follow the simple rule of self defense, which is KEEP IT SIMPLE. You go down, you choke your attacker out or you snap one of his joints, then you get back on your feet as soon as possible. End of.

There is absolutely no need to know about the vast majority of techniques taught in grappling these days, unless you happen to be fighting another grappler. The majority of grappling moves are very technical and are based on the fact that you will be fighting another person who knows the same moves, so it becomes like a game of chess were each man is trying to counter the other.

On the street you won’t have to counter anything because you won’t be fighting another grappler, you will be fighting some guy who probably only knows how to punch and that’s it, in which case he will be easy to manipulate with some simple moves.

Another thing to bear in mind is the fact that most fights are rarely one on one these days. Why would you deliberately go to the ground with one guy if his mates are just going to dance all over you? This is the fatal flaw contained within grappling that no one ever mentions. It’s only good for one on one. Against multiple attackers it is useless.

Grappling and Commercialism

Given all this then, it’s hard for to understand why so many martial artists are devoting so much of their time to grappling now. Yes it’s enjoyable to practice up to a point, but really you only need to know a handful of moves (if that) in order to defend yourself in the street, and that’s if the fight even does go to the ground.

We are back to the commercial issues that are putting pressure on so many clubs these days. Grappling moves are not the be all and end all of fighting techniques, despite what the Gracie’s would have us believe. It has its uses, up to a point, but it shouldn’t be practiced to the detriment of all else and it certainly shouldn’t be considered effective for self defense.

I’ll leave you with this piece of advice from my father when he is asked about grappling for self defence: Never go to the ground if you don’t have to and if you do get back on your feet as soon as possible.

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Technorati Tags: Commercializm, Grappling, MMA, Street Defense

roundbelly

Hello there. My name is Round Belly and I have been studying martial arts properly for since June 2000 when I was 14 years old.
I get fed up with the tired and quite frankly weak arguments that sportfighters use. " We use alive training" " the UFC proves that this technique doesn't work" etc.
The problem with these arguments are when the UFC (or some other MMA or NHB nonsense) fight is taking place, there are probably thousands of other fights going on throughout the world. Yet they make such bold assumptions about fighting in general.
This link explains how to counter their arguments:
http://www.themartialist.com/bullshidofaq.htm
(btw the link I've provided you is done by a very controversial martial artist and he has routinely out debated many sportfighters claims.)
Btw I study kung fu, karate. muay thai, pentjak silat and ju-jitsu.
TMA can be used effectively on the street. I should know I've just had to use it recently.

Neal Martin

Hi Round Belly. I don't wish to get into another slanging match over the whole MMA vs Traditional thing. There has been plenty of that sort of debate already here. I will say however, that the guy you linked to is right about all of what he is saying and he provides some very good incontrovertible arguments against those of the sport fighters. I personally believe that traditional martial arts will once again find favour amongst people again, eventually anyway. People will soon realise the need for a deeper philosophy underlying their training, a sense of depth that sport fighting just does not have. I'm quite frankly tired of sport fighters and their terrible attitude towards everything. There is too much insecurity and immaturity amongst them and I think they all need to grow up and stop pretending tha they know what they are talking about when it comes to martial arts because of them don't. Skimming over a handful of styles is not studying the martial arts. It's a shallow approach that reflects the shallow personalities of the participants. Thanks for your comments.

kintanon

Sweet zombie jesus, I knew you were a little thick but I didn't realize you were a complete idiot.
The ability to successfully execute a takedown, obtain a dominant position, and apply a choke or break is the HEART AND SOUL of grappling. You can't learn to do that against a resisting opponent by taking a couple of seminars or once a month compliant drilling.
It's also a much safer way to deal with an unarmed attacker both from a physical and legal standpoint.
As for multiple opponents, no martial art will reliably keep you from getting beat down by 2 or more guys, but the ability to avoid being grabbed and held (GRAPPLING AGAIN) will help you escape.
If weapons are involved, THEN it becomes a bad idea to start hugging on people. Of course, it's NEVER a good idea to engage someone with a weapon and 99.999% of all weapon disarm techniques in all martial arts are useless and likely to get you killed.
The depth of your ignorance is stunning to me, truly stunning.

Neal Martin

The type of grappling you are talking about I do all the time in sparring and sport jujitsu. I know full well how to handle someone from this position and execute takedowns etc. It's a large part of what I do in my style of Jujitsu and always has been. The classes I take I mostly work on grappling on the ground, the more technical aspects of BJJ.

I stated in the article that grappling has its uses for street self defense but being a stand up fighter (mostly) I'd prefer to handle things from that position. Chokes and locks can be applied without you having to go to the ground with them. I'll also not take the chance that someone else is going to come along and kick me in the head while I'm on the ground as I've seen happen many times. No one seems to fight one on one anymore.

I don't agree with your assertion that most of the disarm techniques in martial arts are useless. Most of them will work, as long as your good enough and confident enough to use them. I know people who have used them against knives, and yes they got cut but they still disarmed the attacker. You always have to expect getting cut when dealing with blades anyway. And you're right, it's not a good idea to face someone with a weapon.

We have a difference of opinion, my friend and I doubt we'll ever agree on these issues. A different perspective is always welcome here however.

kintanon

You're creating another false comparison. If you have a standing choke applied to someone it is equally possible for a partner of theirs to approach you from behind and strike you.
If you are applying the choke on the ground you have actually reduced the number of ways someone can approach you and all of them are within an easy line of sight.
You also are continually making the assumption that grappling involves "lying on the ground". If you have back-mount on someone you are not lying on the ground. You have full mobility to escape, you have that opponent pinned and neutralized and you can see around you just fine. You can also apply chokes, strikes, etc... to the pinned opponent at will without facing any possible retaliation. And against someone who is not a trained grappler anyone with a couple of years of BJJ should easily be able to get their back, flatten them, and achieve a solid backmount within seconds.

Neal Martin

Every situation is different, which is why we have so many variations on technique and positions. You do what is best at the time. You would obviously handle things your way and I mine. That doesn't make either of us wrong.

This is obviously going no where because we both have different opinions so may I suggest you read an article that will hopefully put some perspective on the matter? Here's the link. Read it. It covers a lot of what we have been discussing.

http://www.wimsblog.com/2009/08/mma-sucks-traditional-martial-arts-suck-more/

kintanon

No, you are missing the point which I have stated several times. You're creating a false MMA vs TMA dichotomy. MMA is just a ruleset. The arts that people use within that ruleset include several very old and traditional arts. There's nothing newer than 70 years old being practiced there and the oldest arts, Wrestling and Boxing, are well represented.
The reason you don't see TKD, Kung Fu, or most Karate styles is because they don't train their techniques in an effective manner. The arts lack aliveness in training. Lyoto Machida is the exception that proves the rule, if every Karateka trained like he does, they would be doing just fine. But the guy has a BJJ black belt as well as a lifetime of ALIVE Karate training. Most Karateka don't train like that, but believe that have the same skills and ability to defeat an opponent. Which is just false and can lead to them getting seriously injured when their crappy training fails them.

As for that link, he talks about how the UFC rules handicap Kung Fu and other "TMA"s, but makes no reference to the fact that those rules were not in place in the first 5 UFCs and Royce Gracie with his crappy takedowns smashed everyone he came up against.
The key point here is that the arts you are advocating for DO NOT TRAIN in a way that will allow the people training them to effectively defend themselves against an athletic opponent with some basic knowledge of punching or wrestling.

And frankly, you should train against the most effective people you can find. Assume any attacker will be some kind of unstoppable juggernaut and train to handle THAT situation. Don't assume you will be assaulted by a palsied asthamtic and rest content that your compliantly trained wristlocks will be sufficient to ward him off.

I have in the past and will in the future offer up my eyes, throat, and testicles to any ~140 - ~170 lb TMA guys in the state of Georgia who want to try their stuff out. You can throw groin kicks, attempt eye gouges, attempt throat strikes, etc... Elbows to the spine are welcome as well.up to 170lbs. Just email me and we'll set it up.

Neal Martin

Dude, let me just borrow Wim's words for a second and state that this is my house you're in and I won't tolerate this kind of slanging match. You can make your point without being arrogant about it, which you have consistently done. And what is with that last comment? You are just backing up everything I've been saying about MMA and it's thuggish attitude and superiority complex. Your so desperate to prove yourself, then go do so, just don't do it here. Bye.

kintanon

I'm not in the least being arrogant about it.
It's not about me proving myself, it's about giving people who hold a belief the chance to test that belief in a safe environment first before they are forced to test it in an unsafe one. Let me break it down for you.

If you believe that you can fly and I say, "Well, if you can fly why not hop off that 5 foot ledge and fly around?" and you tell me, "No, my flying is only for emergencies." and then your plane crashes, and you leap out of the plane and suddenly discover that you can not actually fly would you not regret your decision not to test your ability in a safer environment?

People like you are training kids to believe that without ever actually trying to overcome another human being with their skills they will be able to do so.
If you believe you can rely on groin strikes and eye gouges to take care of yourself in a fight but haven't ever actually attempted to eye gouge a person who is actively resisting you then you are setting yourself up for failure.
You must train in an alive manner in order to actually be learning self defense. Compliant drills, Kata, non-contact sparring, point sparring, none of these build actual fighting ability. They may have their place within the overall training context, but if the essential aliveness element, the element of pressure testing your techniques against a resisting opponent, is missing then they are all useless.

Train Alive or You Might As Well Be Dancing.

BK

http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

This link provides insight into the "90% of all fights go to the ground" argument. Based on law enforcement experience from the 80s. If you look at the numbers, it really works out to about 40% or less of all fights go to the ground and that's even if you're a cop and you need to subdue a suspect.

Neal Martin

Thanks for the info BK. I'm not sure were this myth that all fights go to the ground came from. I think it was a prevalent view even before the Gracies came along. Some fights do end up as wrestling matches but only a small percentage and certainly not all. I also think it may suit grapplers to keep this myth alive. It's a good selling point for their art.

Jesse

hi i have a related blog and i would like to exchange links. my email is swinuyasha@gmail.com let me know as soon as possible.

wimde

Now that's a funny story from your dad! LOL! Reminds me of the time a guy came to my class, claiming to be a EU cage fighting champ. And how his teacher was scared to spar him.
He was dead after 15 min of warming up and couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. Oh well... :-)

Wim

John W. Zimmer

Good sound advice. I've found that you never know who is with who for sure and many times you do end up fighting more than one opponent. I would say if you were 100% sure you were fighting one guy, you were a great grappler and your stand up game was lacking - then it would probably make sense (a lot of ifs).

That being said, becoming a well rounded fighter makes sense if that is what you want to do. I have always had the urge to learn Judo and Aikido. My association is starting to incorporate BJJ (Kenpo has it roots in JJ) and I have wrestled and boxed.

Fights don't go the ground normally unless the fighters don't know how to stand up effectively - mostly untrained fighters end up on the ground. I have found my sprawl has always kept my fights standing.

Interesting topic.

Neal Martin

I have nothing against grappling and I think it is good to be a well rounded fighter. Just too risky for the street though.

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